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Colin
Your neck system sounds very much like what Taylor does. Did you ever consider making the neck adjustable?

John

Hi John

Hope you had a good time at your cabin. Did you get any joy with the pictures ?


Many Thanks


Russell

Yeah John, I too am awaiting anxiously the pix...I want to try a totally bolt-on with my next build!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

Pix are coming guys. I have to somehow scale these things down without losing definition. It may be tomorrow.

John

John

Thank you, I appreciate the trouble you are going to.

Many Thanks

Russell

[QUOTE=John Kinnaird] Colin
Your neck system sounds very much like what Taylor does. Did you ever consider making the neck adjustable?

John[/QUOTE]

It's not designed to be adjustable, but it's perfectly possible to shim it ala Taylor. So it is easy to adjust, but I haven't found the need.

That's not the reason I went to the fully bolt on, several advantages that I see are:

1. Fingerboard is glued to the same wood all the way down, I'm not sure, but intuitively feel that this must be sonically better, especially with Mario's epoxy.

2. Fretboard leveling is simple once glued to neck.

3. freting is simple on the extension.

4. Fret leveling and dressing are simple, no risk of damaging the top with a slip.

5. If you don't have a hang-up about having a fret exactly at the body junction (I don't) it would be perfectly possible to have interchangeable necks with different scale lengths or fingerboard tapers for the same body.

There are probably many others, but you probably already know then John.


ColinColin S38586.2641898148

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

John, I have a little picture re-sizer program that takes 3 clicks to make your image small, medium or large, ill email it to you. It takes about 3 seconds to resize any image.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

OK guys
Lance has offered to resize a picture that I sent him. This picture shows the fingerboard with the mahogany fillit and bolt glued to it and some plastic wrap still on the fingerboard extension that I neglected to pull off before taking the picture. (I almost always pull this off before shipping to the customer) And it shows the pocket that I routed in the top for that fillit. It also shows the mortise for the neck tenon and the two bolt holes for the neck bolts. You can see the tenon on the neck. I had to chisel out a little pocket for adjustment rod clearance which was unexpectedly long but I used anyway.
   I hope this makes a little sense, but if not, fire away and I will answer all questions.

   I will add that that mahogany fillit that is now glued to the fingerboard extension was at one time bolted down into that recess that you see in the top just above the sound hole. There are several layers of cardboard that I used to shim that piece of mahogany up to just a hair above the top. That way the mahogany fillit will glue to the bottom of the FBE without a gap. There is a little room at the bottom of the pocket so that there is nothing there to prevent it from clamping down later when the glue hardens. By gluing this down "in place" alligmnent and fitting problems are eliminated. It's like cheating
Let me also add that the next version will have two bolts, side by side, and the adjustment rod and allen screw access will be from inside the guitar body.
John

John Kinnaird38586.3759722222

Colin
   I would certainly like to see pictures of your neck setup. Is that possible?

John

John

Thank you very much for all your trouble.


Russell

John, thanks for the pic! That clears up several questions I had. I do have one more though, are your bolts stuck through the extension block before it is glued to the fretboard, trapping them so they won't spin?

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

I do something a little different than Kinnaird is doing, in my necks I drop in two CF rods (like CFox does) and I let then extend down to the Transverse brace. In the top I simply cut two slots for them and I'm essentially done. If the neck is set right the tongue floats above the soundhole by about a 64/th.

I don't do it John's way because I don't want all that wood up there (no offense John), I'm actually in the process of trimming my neck block design down even more. James Russell uses one like Charles Fox was using and I'm considering moving to something like that.

Up until now I had been over-building so things would last but to be honest my approach is changing and I'm going to try and build the next one as a prototype and do everything as light as I can and see what the change is. I had a chance to chat with Charles a little and he's using a new double top with one (count em kids)..
One brace on the whole top (which is curved) and that one
brace has lightening holes in it and runs across the top just under the soundhole.

I can post some pictures of my neck joint if you want, I've had them up a number of times and so far the system has proved to be very reliable...

Cheers

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

I would really like to see it. I want to try something different..

Gary

Paul, I think the Fox guitar you're referring to is his new Ergo line. I played one while I was in his class earlier this year. Nomex core, double top and next to nothing for bracing. And it sounded great!

They start at about 16K so I doubt I'll ever own one of them.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

Me two Paul, if youhave time to post some pictures

John

I have a question on your system the L shaped block is the extension at an exact 90 degree angle to the neck block ?

Once again Many Thanks


Russell

Sprokett
I like that floating extension thing. Considering going that way myself and then making the heel mortise big enough to encapusalate the entire heel so it can be adjustable. (Like Rick Turner but I want the heel to be recessed into the end block rather than standing proud of the end of the guitar.)
The only hesitation I have on not nailing down the extension somehow is that I am interested in keeping the neck really rigid to the box and this is just one more way to do this. I believe in building light and the lower bout is just that. I am not sure that there is enough energy in the strings to do much with that upper bout anyway. Some folks have worked on making sure that the upper bout is just as lightly built as the lower without any noticable results. (in fact I read some negative results from such builds) At any rate that is my driving philosophy now.
   Russel:
   That L shaped block is at 90 degrees on the inside, but the outside angle is more obtuse and reflects the angle necessary to intersect the bridge. In fact, when I am dressing the top of the sides (and blocks) to accept the top plate, I put a straight edge on the edge of the upper bout, just beside the upper part of the L and rest the other end of that straight edge on a curved brace that goes from side to side at a spot where the bridge will glue. I then shave that upper block L so that the straight edge will lie flat on the block and intersect that arched brace. This has lasting effects as the build proceeds and helps the FBE lie flat on the top and hit the bridge in the right place.
   Dave.
   That bolt is captured with epoxie and will not turn after things are set up.

John

Thanks John

I am going to start work on a test model, I like the idea of the two bolts to give access to the truss rod.

Very clever method for shaping the top block, this I see as a real benefit as it takes some of the uncertainty out of the neck set.

Thank for being so helpful it is very much appreciated.


Russell

Ok gang here it is:



The two rods come out of the neck (they are all the way up to the scarf) and I actually glue the fingerboard tongue to them.



I cut two little slots for them (by hand with a dovetail saw) that allows them to fit right into the top, they stop just before the tranverse brace. On a florentine one is longer than the other because the tranverse is slanted to accomodate the cutaway.



This is how it fits in, I sand down the upper bout a bit to make it slant just a little towards the top of the guitar, then I set the neck angle and so that the rods sit just proud at the edge and float up a little towards the rosette. That seems to fit my bridge size quite well and has not given me any trouble, and I will tell you this now... I've had the prototype back in the shop a couple of times and when needed I just pop that neck off when working on it, I have 8 of these built this way and NONE of them have given me any problems. The original one had a good size heel block but I'm working on version 2.0 in the downtime from HB and it will be more like what Fox and Russell are doing...

If you have more questions or want more pictures just let me know...

Cheers

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

Thanks Paul

I like it Paul
Show us a picture of how the FBE looks like from the side, the players perspective.

John

Paul, now you've gone and done it! I love that, so now I'm gonna have to steel that idea as well! Add carbon rods to the mahogany extension I use (I still like the idea of the FB being glued to the same wood all the way down) and not bolt it down at all. Inspired!

Paul, what dimension are the carbon fibre rods you use? Are they the standard Stew Mac ones?

This is all making gluing down the FB to the top seem really old hat.

ColinColin S38587.4988310185

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

John, are you saying that you use a curved brace the same as your top radius when setting the angle of the neck block extension? My biggest fear in trying the "L" shaped block is that I'll get all the way to fitting the neck and will have screwed something up!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

OK here are some more details...

I am using the 1/8 x 3/8 x 18 graphite rods from LMI, I am switching to the longer ones on my new models so I can run them all the way through the scarf (I normally come up just a little shy and fill with ebony).

Here is a picture of the tongue on the flag guitar, in the white stage the gap was bigger but the finish took up most of the space, it's about a 64th at the very edge of the soundhole:



I've had the neck off this one 3 times since it was built, there was a run that I sanded out and it sunk back in after I sanded it (I hate that), so I popped off the neck, sanded and polished it out and put the neck back on.

As I stated earlier i'm moving to a new type of heel block (doing research now) to lighten things up as much as I can, I'm keeping this system but refining it as I go. There are people who will argue that you need to glue the tongue down to get good vibration from the neck down into the body, but I have to point out that Taylor, Bourgeois and others are doing this and in fact they have more wood down there than I do (I have a bigger heel block for sure). The neck only touches the side of the guitar and the very edge of the top, the rest of the fingerboard sits on or just floats as it goes out.

Cheers

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars